Wretched Conversations

Scoble said this.
Shel said that.
Werner said this.
Shel piped in again.
Scoble then challenged Werner to meet after school by the flag pole to settle things.
Shel backed his buddy and buoyed the brouhaha.
Werner added this.
And Shel said more stuff.

Anyone else feel like we are in Junior High again with all this "He Said. Shel Said." babbling? Too bad this conversation went from being naked to wretched with all the back-and-forth bickering blogging. Let’s hope things simmer down between these three so a productive conversation on the business case for blogging can happen.

Comments

[Marianne Richmond]

I agree....as we present the case for blogging to corporations we have a classic example of the risks unfolding wretchedly right before our eyes...a valid question, however rudely it was perceived, answered in an offhand manner, becomes the conversation about the messenger, not the message. Not only doesn't make the case for blogging...it harms the case.
Marianne

[kirsten]

the blogosphere (all of life really) is all about high school. Did you miss this?

http://reinventioninc.blogspot.com/archives/2006_03_01_reinventioninc_archive.html#114351394296797122

or Nicolas Carr taking a swipe at Scoble?
http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2006/03/seven_rules_for.php
(poor Scoble has had a tough week).

kindly,
kirsten

[johnmoore (from Brand Autopsy)]

Kirsten, the blogosphere I know and participate in isn’t like high school to me. Sure, I, along with others, am guilty of being petty. And yeah, I may piss off a few folks with my HMOs (hot marketing opinions). But, I hope we all would choose to be productive more than destructive with our blogging behavior.

My beef with the Scoble/Werner/Shel blogging ménage a trios is that it’s so freakin’ immature. To scold Amazon for not blogging is bogus. Sure Amazon could be more receptive to blogging but they aren’t. Move on … get past that. For Amazon to be rude to guests presenting on their turf takes cajones and could be construed or misconstrued in many ways. And yeah, Scoble and Shel probably live in a bubble full of blogging loving buddies that they aren’t accustomed to reacting to sharp criticism.

To Marianne’s point … succumbing to back-and-forth “he said she said” bickering harms more than helps the business case for blogging. It just perpetuates the stereotype of bloggers being an accusatory bunch of bratty wannabes.

There are so many ways companies can humanize and personalize their connections with customers. Blogging is one way -- ONE WAY. There are countless other ways. Let’s just hope more businesses find ways to connect with customers in meaningful and deeply personal ways. If companies decide to do that by blogging, great. If not, no worries. But it’s my hope more companies find ways to connect better and more meaningful with their customers.

[Robert Scoble]

I never scolded Amazon for not blogging. First of all, that isn't true. Three of their teams are ALREADY blogging.

Have we taken it too far? Yeah, so message received.

Next time you're giving a presentation at a company at their request and an executive questions you without letting you finish your answers and then goes off on you on his blog I wonder what you'll do, though?

[johnmoore (from Brand Autopsy)]

Robert ... given the situation you describe, I hope I would either send the exec an email directly with my comments or pick up the phone and call him/her to discuss the matter.

[ned]

don't forget what hugh said.

[Shel Israel]

John,
I think you make a valid point and I, for one, am pretty much done with the issue. For the record, however, I don't think we ever scolded Amazon for not blogging. I may have done some scolding, but it was not at the company.

[Sharon]

Maybe Werner is proud of his hard ass approach to his invited guest speakers, but MAYBE he made a mistake!

Instead of taking an opportunity to think outside the box, to use his IMAGINATION and implement in his own mind what he was hearing as something new for Amazon in connecting Amazon to it's customers at a different, more personal level, he chose instead to make a Federal Case for the guest speakers to prove to him why Amazon should blog.

You missed the point Werner. The guests were invited to bring a new idea - not convince a CTO (who knows a CTO that actually has an imagination?) that they were deficient for having not joined the group hug (for that matter who has ever seen a CTO join a group hug!)

I have purchased from Amazon many times, but I have no loyalty to them - they are just a place I might find something less expensive with a few better choices.

Imagine if they had a live blog with real conversations. Now, that may be a reason to stop in more often.

[johnmoore (from Brand Autopsy)]

Yeah Robert & Shel ... "scolding" might have been too scalding of a word choice. Sorry. Quoting Gil Scott-Heron, "Semantics is always a bitch."

[Mack Collier]

Probably the most accurate post on all this yet John.

Bottom line is that Werner seems to think that the boys were totally unprepared to defend their stances, and came in expecting the same kid-gloves most in the blogosphere give them.

The boys seem to think that Werner was a big bad bully.

As always, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

[kirsten]

yep - this entire riff makes my point. blogging = high school.
and i don't just mean it's petty - its about top dogs and popular people (Top N Lists and A-list bloggers), sucking up (link love), bullies (riffs, spam, and dinkheads), exchange students (like "smurfette") reinventing themselves, and pedagogue teachers (kawasawki) who make too many rules and lists.

love you all. but it's true.

kindly,
kirsten

[Andy Havens]

My favorite writing teacher at school, Dan McCall, liked to say that all great writing is always about two things: whatever it's about, and about writing.

Great marketing is always about two things, too: whatever it's about, and marketing. I look at this back-and-forth about blogging, and think to myself, "Isn't this an example of exactly the kind of discussion that blogging is *supposed* to foment?"

The fact that we're blogging about blogging (and now, with this post of John's, blogging about blogging about blogging... my god, it's the Ouroblogos!!!) makes it difficult to see (the reflexivity paradox; it's hard to think about thinking)... but nonetheless true -- it's the reflection of the thing in the thing itself.

The blog proponents say that blogging increases transparency, promotes communication between/among customers and employees and helps communication happen more naturally. OK. Didn't all those things just occur within this set of "dueling blog-o's?"

The "we're-less-than-convinved" crowd says that blogs will open the kimono too far, expose internal personalities that are better left on the inside, give vent to "non-professional" conversations and unleash all kinds of unproductive chatter that is irrelevant to the actual marketing of products and service. Didn't that happen, too?

Yes. It did. A condradiction? Not at all.

And why is that? Because like any marketing medium, blogging must be judged based on (here I go again) goals. What do you want to accomplish? What, specifically, do you think blogging will do for you? What are the costs and benefits? What are the risks? How do you mitigate them?

Is blogging a great tool? For what? Toasting a cheese sandwich? No. Sucks for that. For building a high-performance, massive, worldwide retail sales empire. Nope again. For bringing many more customers to a specific, "long tail" subject than you could possibly have ever garnered through previous, traditional communication channels? Hell, yeah! For letting narrow, vertical groups of customers, partners and employees know what's going on in areas of interest? Yep again.

So. Did I enjoy this blog-wrastle? Sure did. Why? It was meta in the extreme. "Blogs Gone Wild." I think I'll turn this comment into a post on my own blog just so I can come up with either a pic of the Ouroblogos or Scoble vs. Shel on the cover of a mud wrestling VHS tape.

[Mary Schmidt]

What I want to know is where do the stoners hang out? They seemed to have a lot more of fun back in high school (and were very mellow).

Seriously, folks - we're all human and I've tasted my share of shoe leather. But, I see people firing away at each other, saying things they'd never say face-to-face.

I do my best to: a. not say anything in an email or blog that I wouldn't say to the person's face (granted, I'm known for being blunt. I would have said those things to smurfette's face) and b. Take my mom's advice "You can think anything you want." (You don't have to always open your big yap.)

All the ya-yahhing is like those godawful "debates" on the so-called news channels. Everyone is so busy talking over each other that the viewer/listener doesn't get anything other than noise.

Thanks, Kirsten for summing it up so nicely.

[Dennis Howlett]

We're still very much at the starting block with much of this stuff. Is it any surprise that some participants (and I can include myself in that at times) behave like ignorant pratts or arrogant pillocks?

Who will actually care over the long haul?

Side issue: This fracas actually led to an interesting set of discussions around the whole ROI thing. Marketers hate it, finance lives for it, HR hates finance and everyone hates IT. So it's a pretty difficult topic to even get aired let alone discussed in a meaningful way. We need new metrics.